5:39 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 10:53:10PM +0000, Jean-Christophe Helary via Devel wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2024, at 9:17, Martin Quinson <Martin.Quinson(a)ens-rennes.fr>
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> thanks you guys for taking care of these things. I must say that
"traductaire"
> sounds a bit weird in French, doesn't it?
When you're used to it, it doesn't :) Je suis un traductaire libre.
> My personal way of making a text
> gender-inclusive is to alternate from one sentence to the other, or to write it
> all in feminin form after a footnote explaining the fact this arbitrary choice.
> In the case of po4a, I don't have any strong opinion, but I would really
> appreciate if someone finds a way to make it inclusive.
Ok. Thank you.
Jean-Baptiste, let's find ways to improve the documentation. Modify my
proposals as you think is appropriate and let's consider ways to adapt
the current documentation until the next version.
Please note that grammar gender has nothing to do with any meaning in any
language. So all this work is a waste of time.
See for example: https://blog.duolingo.com/what-is-grammatical-gender/
but there are tons of examples almost everywhere...
--
Amike,
Marco Ciampa
8:21 p.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
Le dimanche 14 janvier 2024 à 23:39 +0000, Marco Ciampa a écrit :
Please note that grammar gender has nothing to do with any meaning in any
language. So all this work is a waste of time.
See for example: https://blog.duolingo.com/what-is-grammatical-gender/
but there are tons of examples almost everywhere...
I don't quite agree here, even if discussing it at length on this list is
probably difficult. It's cultural, after all.
My personal opinion is that using masculine as a neutral form for nouns which
design humans comes down to invisibilize womens. In french, we say "masculine
takes it all", but it was not always the fact back in time. I'm not sure that
this po4a list is the right place to discuss the the sociologic effect of the
french grammar, and whether the "masculine is neutral" rule is a form of
violence to women, but I do think that words have effects on the world.
The blog of duolingo is merely about nouns that design objects, not people.
Isn't it?
Amike,
If only French had a (true) neutral form as in well designed languages, that
would solve this kind of issues for the best.
Le lundi 15 janvier 2024 à 03:01 +0300, Fat-Zer a écrit :
I've actually noticed a passage like this in the po4a docs where a
japanese translator was referred to as she. I was wondering if it was
just a mistake, a some sort of deliberate inclusivity-related thing, a
subtle joke on the fact that a lot of translators are female, or some
piece of personal experience petrified in the docs =))
It's deliberate, even if I agree that it's somewhat useless. Words have an
effect, but a small one :)
Cheers everyone,
Mt
7:48 p.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
On Jan 15, 2024, at 11:21, Martin Quinson
<Martin.Quinson(a)ens-rennes.fr> wrote:
Le dimanche 14 janvier 2024 à 23:39 +0000, Marco Ciampa a écrit :
>
> Please note that grammar gender has nothing to do with any meaning in any
> language. So all this work is a waste of time.
>
> See for example: https://blog.duolingo.com/what-is-grammatical-gender/
>
> but there are tons of examples almost everywhere...
I don't quite agree here, even if discussing it at length on this list is
probably difficult. It's cultural, after all.
My personal opinion is that using masculine as a neutral form for nouns which
design humans comes down to invisibilize womens. In french, we say "masculine
takes it all", but it was not always the fact back in time. I'm not sure that
this po4a list is the right place to discuss the the sociologic effect of the
french grammar, and whether the "masculine is neutral" rule is a form of
violence to women, but I do think that words have effects on the world.
That’s correct and there is a significant number of cognitive studies
that show the impact of such rules on human self-perception, so I think
that trying not to emphasize human gender when possible is the best
choice too.
The blog of duolingo is merely about nouns that design objects, not
people.
Isn't it?
That’s what it looks like. And indeed noun gender has no relation to
meaning, although it adds a layer on the perception of things as
womanly or manly, depending on the culture, and even languages that do
not have a grammatical gender, like Japanese, find ways to express that
difference.
> Amike,
If only French had a (true) neutral form as in well designed languages, that
would solve this kind of issues for the best.
That’s what neologisms like “traductaire” attempt to do, or pronouns
like “iel”. Languages evolve with the societies that use them. It’s a
good thing.
Le lundi 15 janvier 2024 à 03:01 +0300, Fat-Zer a écrit :
>
> I've actually noticed a passage like this in the po4a docs where a
> japanese translator was referred to as she. I was wondering if it was
> just a mistake, a some sort of deliberate inclusivity-related thing, a
> subtle joke on the fact that a lot of translators are female, or some
> piece of personal experience petrified in the docs =))
It's deliberate, even if I agree that it's somewhat useless. Words have an
effect, but a small one :)
That’s an interesting remark. I’m writing a book on OmegaT and I’m
trying to find ways to reflect the fact that according to studies 80%
of translators are women. One is to use the feminine in all the
document, another one would be to do as I did in the manual, i.e. try to
reduce the number of occurrences of gendered person nouns. It’s not
easy because unlike French in the 15th-16th century where they had
rules to reflect the plurality of genders, our generations are stuck
with the “masculine is neutral” rule.
Anyway, I’m sure that we’ll find solutions that allow women
readers/users to find the documentation the most welcoming possible.
Thank you for this interesting exchange.
JC
6:09 a.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
Hello,
Le 1/15/24 à 01:48, Jean-Christophe Helary via Devel a écrit :
> On Jan 15, 2024, at 11:21, Martin Quinson
<Martin.Quinson(a)ens-rennes.fr> wrote:
>
> Le dimanche 14 janvier 2024 à 23:39 +0000, Marco Ciampa a écrit :
>>
>> Please note that grammar gender has nothing to do with any meaning in any
>> language. So all this work is a waste of time.
>>
>> See for example: https://blog.duolingo.com/what-is-grammatical-gender/
>>
>> but there are tons of examples almost everywhere...
>
> I don't quite agree here, even if discussing it at length on this list is
> probably difficult. It's cultural, after all.
>
> My personal opinion is that using masculine as a neutral form for nouns which
> design humans comes down to invisibilize womens. In french, we say "masculine
> takes it all", but it was not always the fact back in time. I'm not sure
that
> this po4a list is the right place to discuss the the sociologic effect of the
> french grammar, and whether the "masculine is neutral" rule is a form of
> violence to women, but I do think that words have effects on the world.
That’s correct and there is a significant number of cognitive studies
that show the impact of such rules on human self-perception, so I think
that trying not to emphasize human gender when possible is the best
choice too.
> The blog of duolingo is merely about nouns that design objects, not people.
> Isn't it?
That’s what it looks like. And indeed noun gender has no relation to
meaning, although it adds a layer on the perception of things as
womanly or manly, depending on the culture, and even languages that do
not have a grammatical gender, like Japanese, find ways to express that
difference.
>> Amike,
>
> If only French had a (true) neutral form as in well designed languages, that
> would solve this kind of issues for the best.
That’s what neologisms like “traductaire” attempt to do, or pronouns
like “iel”. Languages evolve with the societies that use them. It’s a
good thing.
I fully disagree. No need to invent new words to feel "politically correct".
Just write "traducteurs" or if you prefer "traducteurs et
traductrices".
Same for this horror that is "iel", as words with dots inside.
In any case I never use his "novlangue", but follow the recommendations of
l'Académie française. I fully agree with the opinions expressed by its late
Secrétaire perpétuel, Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, reported in
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_Carr%C3%A8re_d%27Encausse#...
Cheers,
Didier
>> Le lundi 15 janvier 2024 à 03:01 +0300, Fat-Zer a écrit :
>>>
>>> I've actually noticed a passage like this in the po4a docs where a
>>> japanese translator was referred to as she. I was wondering if it was
>>> just a mistake, a some sort of deliberate inclusivity-related thing, a
>>> subtle joke on the fact that a lot of translators are female, or some
>>> piece of personal experience petrified in the docs =))
>>
>> It's deliberate, even if I agree that it's somewhat useless. Words have
an
>> effect, but a small one :)
>
> That’s an interesting remark. I’m writing a book on OmegaT and I’m
> trying to find ways to reflect the fact that according to studies 80%
> of translators are women. One is to use the feminine in all the
> document, another one would be to do as I did in the manual, i.e. try to
> reduce the number of occurrences of gendered person nouns. It’s not
> easy because unlike French in the 15th-16th century where they had
> rules to reflect the plurality of genders, our generations are stuck
> with the “masculine is neutral” rule.
>
> Anyway, I’m sure that we’ll find solutions that allow women
> readers/users to find the documentation the most welcoming possible.
> Thank you for this interesting exchange.
>
> JC
6:05 a.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
No need to invent new words to feel "politically correct".
Neologisms are what make us able to describe the world we live in. They
have nothing to do with feeling politically correct, and on the contrary
have all sorts of real life implications.
To see what I mean in practical terms, you may want to try to translate
po4a’s manual with 16th century French exclusively to see how far you
go (and you’ll discover that gender agreement rules then were much
smarter than they are now and that there were also much more
double-gender profession nouns then than now).
Just write "traducteurs" or if you prefer "traducteurs
et traductrices".
No, in fact, as I wrote above, I prefer to reformulate sentences to
make them sound natural even without a person noun, or use pronouns
like “vous” while avoiding sentences that require a gender agreement. All
in all, it is actually quite easy to write very well formed and
pleasant to read non-exclusive sentences.
In any case I never use his "novlangue", but follow the
recommendations of
l'Académie française. I fully agree with the opinions expressed by its late
Secrétaire perpétuel, Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, reported in
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_Carr%C3%A8re_d%27Encausse#...
When we have a “secrétaire perpetuel” for the po4a project, I am sure
this recommendation will be useful.
JC
1:08 p.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
Le 2024-01-15 12:05, Jean-Christophe Helary via Devel a écrit :
> No need to invent new words to feel "politically
correct".
Neologisms are what make us able to describe the world we live in. They
have nothing to do with feeling politically correct, and on the
contrary
have all sorts of real life implications.
That's true, but that's a political choice. As this is a community
project, it requires a collective agreement.
Here, Martin as po4a creator clearly gave support for being inclusive,
let's write both genders in the translation and move on.
Would you mind applying the change Jean-Christophe?
Also, a few details:
missing non breaking chars:
https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=1fb9bfc32...
missing plural:
https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=71445c5f1...
https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=0274b678a...
You also translated "master" as "origine". It would require me to read
the translated doc as a whole to see how it improves the translation and
if there is no traps.
Reading it in weblate sounds ok, the text sounds really clearer (Martin
may want to review the english content with this suggestion).
Thank you for your work Jean-Christophe,
---
Jean-Baptiste
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
I fully second this email content. I would love if the French translation of po4a (and
much more content actually) could be inclusive to both minorities and majorities. We have
enough topics to disagree upon, let's try to not invent new ones.
I'm delaying the release by a bit, not only because of this discussion, but because
I'm far from being done with my daily work for tonight.
Thanks everyone and cheers,
Mt
----- Le 15 Jan 24, à 20:08, Jean-Baptiste jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr a écrit :
> Le 2024-01-15 12:05, Jean-Christophe Helary via Devel a écrit :
>>> No need to invent new words to feel "politically correct".
>>
>> Neologisms are what make us able to describe the world we live in. They
>> have nothing to do with feeling politically correct, and on the
>> contrary
>> have all sorts of real life implications.
>
> That's true, but that's a political choice. As this is a community
> project, it requires a collective agreement.
> Here, Martin as po4a creator clearly gave support for being inclusive,
> let's write both genders in the translation and move on.
>
> Would you mind applying the change Jean-Christophe?
>
> Also, a few details:
>
> missing non breaking chars:
> https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=1fb9bfc32...
>
> missing plural:
> https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=71445c5f1...
> https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=0274b678a...
>
> You also translated "master" as "origine". It would require me to
read
> the translated doc as a whole to see how it improves the translation and
> if there is no traps.
> Reading it in weblate sounds ok, the text sounds really clearer (Martin
> may want to review the english content with this suggestion).
>
> Thank you for your work Jean-Christophe,
> ---
> Jean-Baptiste
> _______________________________________________
> Devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.po4a.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.po4a.org
5:43 p.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
On Jan 16, 2024, at 4:08, Jean-Baptiste
<jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr> wrote:
let's write both genders in the translation and move on.
Would you mind applying the change Jean-Christophe?
I'm not finding the upload option in the interface anymore...
Also, a few details:
missing non breaking chars:
https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/po4a/po4a-doc/fr/?checksum=1fb9bfc32...
« fuzzy » ?
fixed.
I'm not sure I'm seeing it. If it's for "fournie" I understand it as
singular since it modifies "liste". The languages list is provided,
it's not a list of provided languages.
The C<$lang> component is automatically expanded using the provided
languages list, reducing the risk of copy/paste error when a new
language is added.
addendas
fixed.
You also translated "master" as "origine". It
would require me to read
the translated doc as a whole to see how it improves the translation and
if there is no traps.
I checked the whole document and it seemed ok.
Reading it in weblate sounds ok, the text sounds really clearer
(Martin
may want to review the english content with this suggestion).
Yes. I was not sure what was the technical point of using the term
"master". I'm more used to "source" and "target"
documents but I was
not going to make that change since in the context of code that has all
different sorts of implications.
I also tried to fix the ascii graphs and I replaced foo/bar by
chapi/chapo, because it's a better metaphor for solution finders :)
Thank you for your work Jean-Christophe,
Thank you for checking all that and apologies for not taking the time
to discuss it here beforehand.
9:57 p.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
On Jan 16, 2024, at 8:43, Jean-Christophe Helary
<lists(a)traduction-libre.org> wrote:
> On Jan 16, 2024, at 4:08, Jean-Baptiste <jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr> wrote:
> let's write both genders in the translation and move on.
>
> Would you mind applying the change Jean-Christophe?
I'm not finding the upload option in the interface anymore...
Ok, I found a better alternative by using "translation teams" = les équipes de
traduction, sometimes singular.
And when the individual names of translators were referred to credit them, I used
"members of the translation teams".
I've also made a number of small changes here and there and fixed a number of mistakes
I had not noticed in my original pass.
Also, I'm doing all this work in OmegaT and it is extremely convenient. Just as a side
note for teams who prefer to work offline :)
6:09 a.m.
New subject: Planned po4a release on January 15. Please translate & test]
No need to invent new words to feel "politically correct".
Neologisms are what make us able to describe the world we live in. They
have nothing to do with feeling politically correct, and on the contrary
have all sorts of real life implications.
To see what I mean in practical terms, you may want to try to translate
po4a’s manual with 16th century French exclusively to see how far you
go (and you’ll discover that gender agreement rules then were much
smarter than they are now and that there were also much more
double-gender profession nouns then than now).
Just write "traducteurs" or if you prefer "traducteurs
et traductrices".
No, in fact, as I wrote above, I prefer to reformulate sentences to
make them sound natural even without a person noun, or use pronouns
like “vous” while avoiding sentences that require a gender agreement. All
in all, it is actually quite easy to write very well formed and
pleasant to read non-exclusive sentences.
In any case I never use his "novlangue", but follow the
recommendations of
l'Académie française. I fully agree with the opinions expressed by its late
Secrétaire perpétuel, Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, reported in
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne_Carr%C3%A8re_d%27Encausse#...
When we have a “secrétaire perpetuel” for the po4a project, I am sure
this recommendation will be useful.
JC
307
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9 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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Didier Spaier -
Jean-Baptiste -
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Marco Ciampa -
Martin Quinson -
Martin Quinson
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