5:22 p.m.
Hi,
some days ago I discovered http://www.oswd.org (an open source web designs
repository). I found some interesting designs and I got curious about how
a po4a web site could look like with them.
After some tests I got this: http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/proposal/
(it's a mix between http://www.oswd.org/viewdesign.phtml?id=1895 and
http://www.oswd.org/viewdesign.phtml?id=1706 ).
It's just a test, but I think that having a web site like this (and not
only a documentation index) would be a good point to get new users (they
can get what is this all about in a flash, instead of having to read the
documentation).
If you like the idea, we could begin thinking on how to organize it and
what texts to put in it.
Regards,
Jordi Vilalta
3:37 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:22:01AM +0100, Jordi Vilalta wrote:
Hi,
some days ago I discovered http://www.oswd.org (an open source web designs
repository). I found some interesting designs and I got curious about how
a po4a web site could look like with them.
After some tests I got this: http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/proposal/
(it's a mix between http://www.oswd.org/viewdesign.phtml?id=1895 and
http://www.oswd.org/viewdesign.phtml?id=1706 ).
It's just a test, but I think that having a web site like this (and not
only a documentation index) would be a good point to get new users (they
can get what is this all about in a flash, instead of having to read the
documentation).
If you like the idea, we could begin thinking on how to organize it and
what texts to put in it.
I love it.
The only remark is that it's a bit unfortunate that the site is english
only. Is it temporarly, or by design? Ie, do you have idea about how to
get it translated?
You also need a pointer to the sponsor (alioth) at the bottom of the left
list.
Beside of that minor points, please go ahead (unless someone else speaks
against it).
Bye, Mt.
4:20 a.m.
Hi,
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Martin Quinson wrote:
[...]
I love it.
Thanks :)
The only remark is that it's a bit unfortunate that the site is
english
only. Is it temporarly, or by design? Ie, do you have idea about how to
get it translated?
It isn't ready for translation currently, but i'll try to enhance it. The
alioth server supports php and it can ease a lot this task.
Any idea on how/where to show the language-changing interface? (links,
combo box...)
You also need a pointer to the sponsor (alioth) at the bottom of the
left
list.
Ok, I'll add it.
Regards,
Jordi Vilalta
5:45 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 11:20:59AM +0100, Jordi Vilalta wrote:
Hi,
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Martin Quinson wrote:
>The only remark is that it's a bit unfortunate that the site is english
>only. Is it temporarly, or by design? Ie, do you have idea about how to
>get it translated?
It isn't ready for translation currently, but i'll try to enhance it. The
alioth server supports php and it can ease a lot this task.
Any idea on how/where to show the language-changing interface? (links,
combo box...)
The best would be to check the "Language-accepted" field of http, or
whatever its name is, and select this automatically. But that's a lot of
work, maybe.
Mt.
6:16 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:45:30PM +0100, Martin Quinson wrote:
> >The only remark is that it's a bit unfortunate that the
site is english
> >only. Is it temporarly, or by design? Ie, do you have idea about how to
> >get it translated?
Damn, you people are going to want a working HTML po4a
module soon, aren't you? :)
> Any idea on how/where to show the language-changing interface?
(links,
> combo box...)
We've got little flags on our site (www.naryves.com), which
the CGI will only display if the current page is actually
translated. However:
The best would be to check the "Language-accepted" field of
http, or
whatever its name is, and select this automatically. But that's a lot of
work, maybe.
This is the best solution. With Apache, you essentially just
enable "MultiViews" for the DocumentRoot, then you rename
the pages as index.html.en, index.html.fr, etc... The
browser asks for 'index.html', along with specifing a
language through HTTP, Apache sees there is no index.html,
then looks up through the localised alternatives till it
finds one. This means that if you specified 'fr' and there
is no French translation, Apache goes on and just serves the
next language, so normally you never miss the page.
OTOH if MultiViews isn't enabled on alioth, we're in
trouble.
Y.
9:45 a.m.
Hi,
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Yves Rutschle wrote:
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:45:30PM +0100, Martin Quinson wrote:
>>> The only remark is that it's a bit unfortunate that the site is english
>>> only. Is it temporarly, or by design? Ie, do you have idea about how to
>>> get it translated?
Damn, you people are going to want a working HTML po4a
module soon, aren't you? :)
I've done some small tests and it seems that the Xml module is currently
enough for our needs :)
>> Any idea on how/where to show the language-changing
interface? (links,
>> combo box...)
We've got little flags on our site (www.naryves.com), which
the CGI will only display if the current page is actually
translated. However:
It's okay if there's a small amount of languages, but it isn't well
scalable.
> The best would be to check the "Language-accepted"
field of http, or
> whatever its name is, and select this automatically. But that's a lot of
> work, maybe.
This is the best solution. With Apache, you essentially just
enable "MultiViews" for the DocumentRoot, then you rename
the pages as index.html.en, index.html.fr, etc... The
browser asks for 'index.html', along with specifing a
language through HTTP, Apache sees there is no index.html,
then looks up through the localised alternatives till it
finds one. This means that if you specified 'fr' and there
is no French translation, Apache goes on and just serves the
next language, so normally you never miss the page.
OTOH if MultiViews isn't enabled on alioth, we're in
trouble.
I haven't tried it, I've directly gone to (successfully) detect it in php.
I prefer having the control over these variables, and this way we don't
need duplicate files (index.html.*).
Regards,
Jordi Vilalta
3:52 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 04:45:28PM +0100, Jordi Vilalta wrote:
>Damn, you people are going to want a working HTML po4a
>module soon, aren't you? :)
I've done some small tests and it seems that the Xml module is currently
enough for our needs :)
Yes, that's the conclusion I more or less reached yesterday:
HTML is too messy, and it's better to mandate the code to
comply to XHTML, in which case the XML module seems like
it'll do the job nicely (although I haven't finished that,
and considering you know it very well you'll probably be
done before me...)
>We've got little flags on our site (www.naryves.com), which
>the CGI will only display if the current page is actually
>translated. However:
It's okay if there's a small amount of languages, but it isn't well
scalable.
That's true; I suppose what is done on www.debian.org or
www.gnu.org is the simplest way.
[Language-accepted]
I haven't tried it, I've directly gone to (successfully)
detect it in php.
I prefer having the control over these variables, and this way we don't
need duplicate files (index.html.*).
I'm confused. Are you running po4a to get the translation of
the page for each request, using a php script? If so, that
sounds vastly under-efficient.
What I do is that for each master file (foobar.shtml.en...
I assume there is only one master language) you generate as
many PO as translations (foobar.fr.po, foobar.de.po and so
on) then a script goes through the PO files and generates
all the translations (foobar.shtml.fr, foobard.shtml.de).
I don't really see how you can avoid duplicating the files.
Y.
4:20 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 09:52:30PM +0000, Yves Rutschle wrote:
That's true; I suppose what is done on www.debian.org or
www.gnu.org is the simplest way.
Actually, does anyone know how the translations of these Web
sites are maintained and generated?
Y.
5:05 p.m.
Hi,
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Yves Rutschle wrote:
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 09:52:30PM +0000, Yves Rutschle wrote:
> That's true; I suppose what is done on www.debian.org or
> www.gnu.org is the simplest way.
Actually, does anyone know how the translations of these Web
sites are maintained and generated?
It seems that the gnu.org people use the classic method:
http://www.gnu.org/server/standards/README.translations.html
Debian seems to use another method (wml?):
http://www.debian.org/devel/website/translating
I've seen a "Martin Quinson" there, so I guess he will be able to explain
it better ;)
Regards,
Jordi Vilalta
5:20 p.m.
Hello,
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Yves Rutschle wrote:
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 04:45:28PM +0100, Jordi Vilalta wrote:
[Language-accepted]
> I haven't tried it, I've directly gone to (successfully) detect it in php.
> I prefer having the control over these variables, and this way we don't
> need duplicate files (index.html.*).
I'm confused. Are you running po4a to get the translation of
the page for each request, using a php script? If so, that
sounds vastly under-efficient.
Sorry, I didn't explain it well. The idea is to have a main php script
that handles the languages and that shows the header/footer of the page.
Then it includes the contents of pre-translated files in the right part of
the page.
Regards,
Jordi Vilalta
1:55 p.m.
New subject: [Po4a-devel]WML (was: New website?)
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 10:20:02PM +0000, Yves Rutschle wrote:
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 09:52:30PM +0000, Yves Rutschle wrote:
> That's true; I suppose what is done on www.debian.org or
> www.gnu.org is the simplest way.
Actually, does anyone know how the translations of these Web
sites are maintained and generated?
Yeah, indeed. Actually, the debian webmasters don't write the complete html
files, but use a tool called wml. This tool happens to be maintained by
Denis :)
My personal web page also uses this tool, and I've made a little
introduction page about it. It's not perfect, but you can see it here:
http://graal.ens-lyon.fr/~mquinson/about.html
If you want my personal opinion, it's quite a waste of resources to write
the po4a site in php since there is no dynamic part. Wml gives you the
ability to programatically build your site (intead of writing every bit
manually) without requiering to rebuild them for each user when it's not
used.
But since I'm not the one who will do the site, whatever solution you will
happen to choose is fine to me. But since you asked...
Bye, Mt.
3:27 p.m.
New subject: [Po4a-devel]WML (was: New website?)
On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 08:55:35PM +0100, Martin Quinson wrote:
My personal web page also uses this tool, and I've made a little
introduction page about it. It's not perfect, but you can see it here:
http://graal.ens-lyon.fr/~mquinson/about.html
"Known bug: translations don't work." So, how do they keep
debian.org translated? :-)
If you want my personal opinion, it's quite a waste of resources
to write
the po4a site in php since there is no dynamic part. Wml gives you the
ability to programatically build your site (intead of writing every bit
manually) without requiering to rebuild them for each user when it's not
used.
I feel that way about a lot of things done in the Web design
business: you could easily throw out SSI and replace it with
whatever macro processor (m4 or cc -E for example). I guess
computers are just so much faster than network connections
that it doesn't really matter.
Y.
5:34 a.m.
New subject: [Po4a-devel]WML (was: New website?)
On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 09:27:11PM +0000, Yves Rutschle wrote:
On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 08:55:35PM +0100, Martin Quinson wrote:
> My personal web page also uses this tool, and I've made a little
> introduction page about it. It's not perfect, but you can see it here:
> http://graal.ens-lyon.fr/~mquinson/about.html
"Known bug: translations don't work." So, how do they keep
debian.org translated? :-)
It's a known bug of my macro set. I tried something in the past, but it was
not the right way. And since then, I didn't try Denis's "recent" add of
gettext into mp4h (second wml's pass). It looks promising.
For debian, we translate every single wml file. Everything is in a uniq CVS,
and translators have special marker to indicate which cvs version they did
work on. See http://www.nl.debian.org/devel/website/stats/ for statistics.
Makefiles do the job of building everything, adding a note when the
translation is outdated. This page is, for example:
http://www.nl.debian.org/events/2003/0312-cebit-report.fr.html
So, basicaly, Debian have a great tool to generate html, but the translation
is still semi-crafted. The 9 passes of wml make it difficult to build a po4a
module.
Mt.
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